Lets try to have a civil conversation here with no name calling or assuming you know anything about anyone's politics here. If you have no interest in this discussion please ignore it, don't just come in and complain. If anyone wants to have this conversation in person I'll be glad to buy you a beer (if you drink and you're 21) and talk about it... so please bring up concerns you have about the cycling communities outlook and relationship to oppression and privilege.
a discussion about privilege and oppression in the cycling community
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I think a lot of the issues around oppression and privilege come from judgments and assumptions (on all sides).
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That is a very good topic. I will have to think on this one before I reply.
I will say right now tho that I was talking with my Mom the other day about the biker that was killed on Harts Run Rd. and before I could even say it she mentioned the fact how the news story said about the biker "being on the edge of the road...." and we both said at the same time that by law we as bikers(yes my mom rides) have every right to ride smack dab down the middle of the lane if we want to.
She also said that its a wonder that people(mortorist) do not complain about the fact that we do not have to have a licence, insurance, inspections etc...as cars do so why should we have the right to ride on the road. We both agree that BY LAW we have the right to be on the roads.
Sorry if I went off topic but I just wanted to share.
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I think the major reason for not having insurance/ licensing is there are VERY FEW accidents resulting in deaths (or even serious injury or anything but minor property damage) caused by cyclists.
I think the problem with registration is, you can buy a bike just about anywhere (some places under $100), and there is no centralized database of all the bikes out there--no universal identification number system (like VIN).
I think that argument is a poor one anyhow.
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I agree that argument is a very poor one, she was just thinking out loud how other people(non-bikers) might think.
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Recall that bare minimum auto insurance is for damage you can potentially inflict upon others and their property. Extra insurance is to cover you and your vehicle.
Nearly every bike accident I have been in - about 10 or so...), there was no apparent damage to the car/truck/van that I collided with. Last one was a right hook in Oakland. Ran after the guy hoping to see a nice long scratch along his passenger side, but no. So pissed...
Unless you're pedaling around Pittsburgh with laser cats strapped to your handle bars, I don't see how the insurance is even remotely necessary.
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If the context of the query is oppression/privilege of auto v. cycle, I'm not sure I agree those issues are at the bottom of the tension. There are many many threads dedicated to all of the potential sources of the many problems flowing from that.
However, I note a great deal of tension in the cyclist v. cyclist dynamic. The "fixies" v. the "lycras," if you will. I don't know whether that is rooted in sociological issues, or if, as ndromb says, it's more a matter of prejudice.
(I think this is a fantastic topic - thanks for raising it.)
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i think any sort of tensions within the cyclist community are pretty superficial, especially since many of the people fall into both camps.
i think questions that this topic was created for are more like:
- as a community are cyclists more or less privileged than the average american
- what can we do to attract a more diverse group of people to the cycling community (diverse in terms of race, gender, sexual orientation, and class)
- why is the cycling community so white
- how do the numbers compare between overall cyclists in the city and those who participate in the community, how do we explain the differences, what can we do to make them disappear.
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To start, I'm just going to repost a version of what I put on the Don Parker thread, maybe more applicable here.
On one hand there are teenagers being killed, and killing, in the suburbs, operating vehicles because the structure of their environment provides no options, un-walkable, un-bikable, no public transit. People have fled cities for the mythological safety of suburbs, in complete denial of the actual costs of the choice.
On the other hand there are kids the same age in the city lashing out at people randomly because they feel like they are stuck, they have no future, no options, and no real reason not to.
These incidents are two sides of the same coin, fragmentation of society based on fear, lack of knowledge, lack of humanity. That's one reason I think cycling hold such great potential to break barriers. It takes people out of those isolated metal boxes, re-humanizes people. And it's freaking fun! -
In the absence of data, presumption and prejudice reign.
Between the threads identifying all truck or SUV drivers as evil, and this thread presuming that bicycle riders are a homogeneous group, we are making an awful lot of assumptions here.
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what assumptions are 'we' making?
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Mark, we were posting at the same. Totally on board with your points.
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Already apologized for the truck/suv thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's consider "assumptions" rather individual "perceptions", and think about what can be done to pick these apart. Such as "my perception is that many truck drivers are machismo homophobes", not really but just using that example. -
another interesting thing that kind of belongs in this thread is the persistent peppering of "fag" or "faggot" from cars...
why does this attack on sexuality seem to be the attack of choice... why doesn't it happen to females? does there just happen to be a strong correlation between homophobia and raging motorists?
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FWIW I was driving my parents (mid 70’s) to dinner last night when we approached a guy riding a bike on Penn avenue toward east liberty when my mother said something like ‘oh look there’s a biker’ and then just as fast said ‘oh he’s not a real biker’. When I inquired what she meant she said that he wasn’t wearing a helmet, had no lights and was riding on the sidewalk. In her words it was just a guy riding a bike, not a cyclist. Now my mother hasn’t been on a bike in 50+ years and she probably only mentioned this because I’ve been riding quite a bit the last two years and we had a big conversation about Don Parker’s accident earlier that evening. But how many motorists see us as “cyclist” vs “guy-on-a-bike?” Does it make a difference? I think it does. Guy-on-a-bike is kind of like a j-walking pedestrian, you try not to hit them but if you do it’s really the pedestrians fault. Cyclist is more like the pedestrian crossing at the corner with the walk-sign, if you hit them it’s the drivers fault.
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- why is the cycling community so white
Who cares?
I don't get "fag" as much as I get "Lance!"
A few years ago, I used to get "chink!" and "gook!" a lot.
I think I get (negative) things yelled at me a lot less now. Recently, I have received more compliments on my bikes than anything else (blood bike and "bike!" bike)
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riding on the sidewalk.
Agreed. Just a guy on a bike.
Why are we so fixated on race? Some people have more pigment than others. Great. Now can we please, as a culture, move on?
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Yeah, maybe nobody cares. As a suburban middle aged white guy, somebody tell me it's a non-issue, I'm not in a position to make that call.
From my vantage point out here in the burbs, I see things. I foam at the mouth when my neighbors laugh at all the stupid black people in the city who are on the news, all the dumb little black kids who get shot. And they make fun of my great Indian neighbors next door. I fucking despise it. I try and have that conversation with people, it's just pigment, they're human beings, no different than anyone.
I'd love to move on, to me, it's totally just pigment. But does it sound like our society is ready to move on? From my point of view I still see a lot of work to be done. I just want to make sure that nothing I participate in, especially something I deeply enjoy, in any way supports or continues this abhorrent condition. -
@Mark - I'm trying to be constructive. My perception is that there are a lot of generalizations accepted at face value here: truck/suv drivers are evil, car drivers are all bad, lycra wearers are posers.
For someone who is asking for civil debate, your response ('what assumptions are "we" making') reads like a shout-down.
If you only want to hear opinions that agree with your view, I'll gladly stop posting.
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ALMKLM, i put we in quotes because when this thread is about lots of different groups of people. i didn't mean to dismiss your comment, i just didn't understand it and i was distracted getting ready to leave. when i say we i'm usually talking about the people in this thread unless i clarify otherwise in the sentence, you obviously had a different 'we' in mind because neither edmonds or I knew what 'we' you were talking about or what assumptions you were talking about. by putting 'we' in quotes i was referring to your 'we' and not mine. your response makes sense but there was no way any of us could have known thats what you were talking about when you said 'we make assumptions'.
as i said before: 'i think any sort of tensions within the cyclist community are pretty superficial, especially since many of the people (on this board) fall into both camps.' and any sort of oppression truck drivers/lycra wearers feel is pretty negligible... but investigating any prejudice, no matter how superficial it is can have its benefits, such as using it as a model to understand oppression and privilege on a larger scale. (Dr. Seuss agrees: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=8AEEC621913E6935 )
on the other hand we live in a state with the worst black homicide rate in the country, this kind of oppression (talked about in detail in this PG article: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07178/797356-85.stm ) is something that many of our neighbors/coworkers/friends struggle with every day. I think the answer to the questions "who cares" and "can we move on" are that until everyone cares we can't really move on... but most people don't. race is still a very important issue in our society, especially in pittsburgh. the differences in quality of life between people of color and whites in pittsburgh is both astounding and indisputable.
an interesting part of this is that the under-privileged have more to gain from cycling than those who can afford a car and good insurance and gas but choose not to, but yet in the cycling community that we are a part of we don't see a lot of minorities.
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mark, your last point is EXACTLY where i think we as a community can help. we already have the infrastructure either in place or damn close to it, we just need to get the word out to the people that can really use the help. i mean how many of us on this board NEED a free or dirt cheap bike? most of us can afford a few hundred at least for a ride, even if it means saving up for a month or two. we need to figure out a way to help people that NEED better transportation/recreation/career options instead of just serving ourselves.
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an interesting part of this is that the under-privileged have more to gain from cycling than those who can afford a car and good insurance and gas but choose not to, but yet in the cycling community that we are a part of we don't see a lot of minorities.
In _our_ cycling community we don't see a lot of minorities. I see lots of minorities riding around on bikes, and I bet a lot of them ride because it's the best/cheapest option. They likely do not, however, care much about bike advocacy, and thus aren't a part of this particular cycling community.
That said, I agree with Colin--we should do our part to spread the word about cycling being a viable option for transportation. That doesn't necessarily mean this particular community would change its racial/ethnic make-up however. Maybe some folks would think "wow, that's awesome--how can I help?" but others might just say thanks, and we simply pass them on the street.
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i dont even care if i get a thanks, if some kid starts working on bikes and thats a reason for them not to be doing more destructive things with their life, i'm happy. i'm just sick of seeing how shitty life is for a lot of people in this city, and in MY neighborhood and would like to do what little i can with the things that are MY passions to try and help some of those people.
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I just want to make sure everyone who is not presently in, feels like the door is open.
I just want to bring more people to the party (hearing Indigo Girls "Shame on you" in my head right now, love it). -
EXACTLY
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an interesting part of this is that the under-privileged have more to gain from cycling than those who can afford a car and good insurance and gas but choose not to, but yet in the cycling community that we are a part of we don't see a lot of minorities.
I think that could actually be a part of the explanation to what you're asking about.
Part of privilege is not being marked, not having people look at you and make certain assumptions. Like the assumption that you don't have enough money, maybe in general, or in this context, maybe for a car. It's alot easier to feel like you look like you're doing it because you want to - than to feel like you look like you're doing it because you have to. (lots of "like"'s there, but this really is about the messiness of what people perceive others' perceptions to be, and how that affects what one thinks about one's own life.)
So two issues here, both creating the same problem. One being perceived as not being able to choose a car (maybe because of one's minority status) and the other *actually* not being able to afford one. Think about people here who've reported having been abusively shouted at while riding, with ""get a car" sorts of drivel. It's always hard to experience, but you can brush it off more easily if you either actually have a car or don't have one very clearly (in your own awareness) by choice. If the jerk shouting from his/her car had actually nailed your situation (not that that makes him/her something other than a jerk) it'd be alot harder to get past that kind of thing. That's just an intense scenario for the purpose of illustration, but I think these ideas permeate our culture - they don't only affect us when someone yells something inappropriate from their window. So people may be making choices based on sublte expectations they have of the world around them, and of how it will receive them.
I'll tell you what made me think of this. I play an old rural style of music, and I've gotten really positive responses to it in places like NYC and Portland (ME) - not to say that no one here likes it, but in Western PA I've found lots of people averse to anything that might be related to anything rural. There's this tangible fear of people thinking we're really just West Virginians. I've come across people who place a pretty high priority on distancing themselves from that. (a depressing notion in and of itself, but a different topic.) Travel to where no one's remotely worried about that kind of thing, and they seem more likely to just enjoy the music. (unless they just genuinely don't like the stuff, there is that.) The analog I'm going for is "If you're not worried about what people think your life is, or what your life actually is, it's alot easier to enjoy riding your bike."
I don't think there's an easy solution to that. On an individual level, getting to where you don't care what jerks think of you is a beautiful accomplishment. But on a societal level, changing those big attitudes for everyone else's benefit, that's another mountain to move.
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I think the phrase you're looking for is "class anxiety".
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bikefind, I agree with all of that. I think the image concern in many circles is way bigger than them not feeling welcome at FreeRide or something. I work in some of these communities and while my message is somewhat helpful, we have the best success when we can identify an ambassador from the community who will basically say what we've been saying, but they have credibility. People need to see a shift in people that they relate to.
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I feel like I read about an event recently - or maybe imagined it - that was intended to engage economically disadvantaged kids and interest them in cycling.
If it was just a dream, then I propose BP could partner with a bike shop and the Police to have a Bike Rodeo in a community with free repairs for bikes, safety instruction, perhaps a big-box retailer could donate helmets for distribution. Could have a mass ride through the neighborhood.
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There was recently a rodeo in Fox Chapel. Sounds like a good idea for East Liberty.
When does the Performance shop open? I bet they would be on board--what a great way to introduce yourself to the community.
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"I see lots of minorities riding around on bikes, and I bet a lot of them ride because it's the best/cheapest option."
That seems to exactly dovetail with one of the missions of BP. Everyday riding. That's why I participate here, and don't bother to mess about with WPW, ACA, etc.
Also, if people who ride and don't drive because they choose to, can connect with and be accepting of people who ride because they have to, I would think it would relieve that anxiety, and help them to actually enjoy and continue the habit.
The idea that there are "real bikers" and other bikers needs to lit on fire, stamped out, and peed on. I think anyone other than someone with an actual disability is a biker or potential biker, like, are there "real walkers" and other walkers? Hikers, I suppose. -
"I see lots of minorities riding around on bikes, and I bet a lot of them ride because it's the best/cheapest option.They likely do not, however, care much about bike advocacy, and thus aren't a part of this particular cycling community"
bjanaszek, your comments above are at the very least, a little short sighted.
Have ever spoken with a "minority" cyclist to find out why they ride?
Our Club is made up of large,DIVERSE group of cyclist and are very much advocates in the cycling community.Our tribute ride last year to acknowledge the bravery of the fallen police officers, showed the media that cyclist are a contributing and caring part of the Pittsburgh community.
So come ride with us and find out more about your fellow coc (cyclist of color)!
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Just wanted to clarify for people, since the full name of the group wasn't mentioned in the above post - pghmtcc is the PGH Major Taylor Cycling Club.
Their info is here: http://www.cmh.pitt.edu/cycling.asp
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Hey there. Sorry, didn't mean to shortsighted. I merely wanted to point out that there are LOTS of people on bikes, and for many it is simply a good transportation option (or the only transportation option). My point was that some folks ride because they have to, not to promote some greater cause. I didn't mean that these are the ONLY minorities on bikes, or that minorities don't care about bike advocacy. Clearly, this isn't the case.
I've not ridden with the Major Taylor club, but I know folks that do, and I appreciate what the club has achieved (and hopes to achieve).
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.
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Thanks for posting the club info Rachel, I was too focused on replying to the post.
Nice comments bjanaszek, look forward to riding with you!
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Anyone who has thrown a leg over a bike and doesn't already know the name Major Taylor should really read about him. It's a tremendous and forgotten slice of American history. And with a Pittsburgh connection.
I have a book I should probably donate to the BikePgh library... -
yay for constructive conversation... there is already a mobile bike repair unit courtesy of free ride at some of the east lib farmers market... i think if that idea were expanded upon (maybe once a month it could be something more than just bike repair?) and advertised a little better we might be on the way to starting something really good for the community.
also, a side note: when i say pittsburgh bike community i'm talking about cycling activists basically. i know, for example, that there is a huge "bike community" of somali+neighborhood kids that cruise around lawrenceville, but if you asked most of them what their passion is, i don't think riding a bike would be in their top 5... does that make them not a bike community? i don't really know, but thats not really what i'm referring to.
also i personally think that when someone yells "get a car" at someone who's on a bike but has a car or could afford one but doesn't want to buy one, that person is more offended than someone who can't afford a car... i know i can't afford a car and when people yell 'get a car' at me i'm kinda just like... ya... maybe someday... it doesn't even phase me. some people i ride with are really offended by the idea that people think they can't afford a car though.
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also i personally think that when someone yells "get a car" at someone who's on a bike but has a car or could afford one but doesn't want to buy one, that person is more offended than someone who can't afford a car... i know i can't afford a car and when people yell 'get a car' at me i'm kinda just like... ya... maybe someday... it doesn't even phase me. some people i ride with are really offended by the idea that people think they can't afford a car though.
You make a good point. I'm not necessarily proud to admit it, but it bugs the crap out of me when people yell "get a car" at me. Maybe it's because I spend as much of my life around cars as I do bikes and when people say things like that it makes me thing they don't understand anything about either.
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also i personally think that when someone yells "get a car" at someone who's on a bike but has a car or could afford one but doesn't want to buy one, that person is more offended than someone who can't afford a car... i know i can't afford a car and when people yell 'get a car' at me i'm kinda just like... ya... maybe someday... it doesn't even phase me. some people i ride with are really offended by the idea that people think they can't afford a car though.
It might have to do with your situation too. If you're a student, or have some other reason to feel that your financial situation is temporary, that could affect a person's state of mind. Or if you've chosen not to spend too much of your life and your energy making money, but instead to spend carefully so that you can life more simply or to spend more of your time in ways that you want to, that could make having scant finances less stressful.
On the other hand, if you're in a situation where you've tried as hard as you can for as long as you can remember to try and make ends meet and put something away for some of the nicer things, or maybe a house/car/etc., or heck, even emergencies, and you just cannot manage to achieve these things that you see people around you with, that can be rough on a person. And if the reason is either something you don't understand or something that you do but realize to be permanent (being disadvantaged from early in life, living with an invisible disability (I say invisible since we're assuming the person in question can ride a bike) etc.,) then I'd expect it to be extra hard to deal with taunts from people telling you to go get those things you can't seem to have.
Of course, I could be wrong. It happened once back in '93.
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that a good point bikefind... i would put myself in this category: "Or if you've chosen not to spend too much of your life and your energy making money" but i think if i wanted to make a lot of money and still couldn't after a long time then i probably would be a little more put off by it...
to be perfectly honest though i don't spend a lot of time with anyone in that category, so i've never really dealt with that reaction firsthand
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it annoys me because it implies that the choice to ride a bike instead of a car makes you somehow childish or something. like someday, you'll grow up and do the right thing and get a car. it implies that no reasonable person would choose to ride a bike instead of driving.
i do agree, though, that the idea could have a different effect altogether on someone who rides a bike wishing they could afford a car. it's the sort of thing that we don't think about, but likely neither do they.
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I don't think it is oppression, but after about half a year of not having racist remarks yelled at me, I was called "Jackie Chan" multiple times tonight.
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That's pretty much just stupidity, but oppression is nothing if not enabled by stupidity.
I guarantee that any of these buttnuggets who shout things are only doing it for their friends. And with a little alcohol. If they were walking down the street lone, there would be silence. Refer to "pack mentality" attributed to teenage city kids in the "cyclist attacked" thread. Some people never grow out of that.
It would be pretty funny to be mr. slick out in your gelled hair, Ed Hardy threads, and elf shoes, and have "grow up" yelled at you by a nutjob on a tall bike. Ha! -
Pittsburgh is not very good at racial integration.
When I was in LA this summer 75% of kids on fixies
were of latin descent. Have you ever seen a gang
of 15 year old latinas in Pittsburgh on brakeless
fixed gears? It was pretty awesome.There are a few people here trying to change the
situation. Trips for kids takes kids mountain
biking, Velomuse, is doing something similar, the
MGR foundation is doing a school cycling program
this summer with Pittsburgh Public. -
gang of 15 year old latinAS on brakeless fixed gears? Listen, I've been trying to get away from this whole Humbert Humbert label....
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